Jordan Royal (Sonic Alien 4ZZZ) caught up with Jim McCullough of CIVIC to chat about the writing process and emotional core of ‘Chrome Dipped’, recording at MONA, exploring other genres and what he hopes people take away from the album.

Interview aired on Sonic Alien 4ZZZ 4 June 2025.

Jordan: I'm joined by Jim from CIVIC. Thank you so much for hopping on the call and having a chat. I'm really excited. I love Chrome Dipped. Got a little bit of early listening, so I'm really excited for it to drop on May 30th. So, thanks so much for taking the time.

Jim: Thank you.

Jordan: Cool. Well, Chrome Dipped feels like a real shift for you guys. There's still that raw energy of tracks like Poison and The Hog, but there's more of a shoegazy, country, even robotic sound at times. What inspired those sonic changes and how did it feel stepping out of that classic CIVIC sound?

Jim: I think for us, going down to MONA and recording this, we were pretty open to change. We felt like the direction we were going was getting a bit stale for us and maybe the sort of circles we were in. We were like, how can we change this up, how can we go to the next step with it?

And we had our demos done. We made a demo tape of the songs before we went into the recording process of it, the actual recording process of it. But we sort of had an idea of what it was going to be, but we didn't know exactly how far down the rabbit hole we were going to go until we got there. And then we were like, okay, well, we can push this one out a bit further or pull this one back.

I think for the first time ever in recording for us, we had a really good producer this time and it was like, I don't know, I feel like we were much more open to really trying to change the songs, whereas traditionally we'd kind of get to the edge and we'd kind of be like, oh, maybe we'll step back and just stay in the wheelhouse that we've traditionally been in.

Jordan: Yeah, of course. I feel like, I mean, I've read about this a little bit, is that you guys consciously sort of made the decision to push yourselves a little bit, which it definitely comes through. And you've spoken about working, is it with Kirin J Callinan, the producer?

Jim: Correct, yes.

Jordan: And breaking down that sort of rigid, I guess, punk structure that you guys had previously worked with and deconstructing and rebuilding songs. How did that process push you creatively? Were there any tracks that ended up completely transformed because of that process?

Jim: Yeah, I mean, I think it's just that thing where we've all been in bands for years and always, I think just even traditional structure of songs can get a little bit kind of, I don't know, not boring is the right word, but it can just get a little bit like, okay, there's a chorus and then there's an intro and then there's a verse. I mean, there's still those structures in the album, 100 percent, and I think that those structures are still valid and important. But for us, we were like, okay, how can we play with that a little bit?

But I mean, songs like Chrome Dipped, sonically not so much structurally, but sonically we really didn't know how that was going to come about. We had an idea, but it wasn't fully fleshed out. And then it was Kirin's idea to really strip back the drums a lot. And then, you know, I had these kind of rough vocal melodies and I had the lyrics basically finished, but he just kind of brought them out and emphasized certain points.

What I found most interesting throughout the whole process was this idea of emphasis. You think that you've got to push harder or something, but in fact, this time around, it was more actually going less hard, and that actually had more of an impact, if that makes sense, which I found actually quite interesting.

Jordan: That's such an interesting process, because I do think that it would be easy to overload stuff, especially, but like, I guess, taking stuff away, especially when you're really emotionally connected to certain parts of songs would be quite challenging. It sounds like Kirin was a really influential contributor to the record and the process of creating the record. That’s amazing.

Jim: Well, I think we have a lot of trust in him as a musician, and especially in that realm of questioning. Like, he's so good at, I don't know if you know his music, but I think that he's really good at making stuff that sounds like something you haven’t heard before, but it's got his signature to it, but it's also a bit familiar. I think he's really good at that, at living in that world. And we were like, okay, well, either he's going to push us into his world or he's going to step into our world. And I thought that was, I still don't know what happened, whether we ended up in his world or he ended up in ours, but either way, the record definitely has his energy on it.

Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. Regardless of which world you're in, I think it sounds absolutely amazing. And I love the direction that it went in.

It sort of takes me to my next question, which is that you guys sort of shook things up not just with the producing and the writing, but you also, you touched on it before, spent a week at MONA in Tasmania, which is a huge shift from your sort of DIY outback approach that you took on Taken by Force. So how was that new environment? Did that connect with the record in any way or change or shape the record in any way?

Jim: I think like, in those recording environments, I don't know, probably more now that we've done a few, I'm kind of realizing, okay, well, the space that you go to does have a big, or can have a big impact on how the recording process goes or what the outcome is or whatever. But like, you know, the first EP, we recorded that in a day because we only had enough money to be able to have the space for a day, and we took our own gear there and stuff like that.

And then, you jump forward to now and going down to MONA, it was just a crazy experience, like every day going through this tunnel underground to go to this crazy studio. And then there’d be points where we'd be like, okay, Lewis would be doing a guitar take or something, and I'd just be like, I'll be back in a minute. And I'd pop out and go and be surrounded by some crazy Egyptian sculpture that's like 200 BC or something. And I'm standing in front of this thinking about, I don't know, it evoked all these kind of thoughts and feelings. And then you go back into this recording studio.

And it just felt really special to have all this other stuff right there at my fingertips. Traditionally, it's been like, you're in a studio and then you step outside and you might be in your own studio, or you walk out into the street, or when we were recording in the countryside, it was like you walk outside and you're standing in the paddock or whatever. And all those places are valid and they all were important in their own ways. But walking out into, in my opinion, one of the coolest kind of museums in the world and being surrounded by this stuff was super special.

Jordan: Yeah, of course. And I feel like in your answer as well, you can tell how different those two recording environments are, like the outback versus, you know, you walk inside and there's Egyptian sculptures. That would spark curiosity, I feel like as well, like being in, as you said, one of the best museums in the world.

Jim: I think it just evokes something. It's just a very special place to be. There's something to be said about rocking up to this crazy studio every day and being like, oh shit, this is actually a really big deal. And we were so lucky that we could even come and do this here. And I think that also pushed us into those spaces where we were more open to polishing a song or making it sound bigger. Because traditionally, we wouldn't maybe be as open to that, if that makes sense. We'd be more like, well, it makes sense to make this a garage sounding record because we're literally recording it in a garage, or we're happy for this record to sound kind of DIY because we're doing it ourselves. Whereas this time around, I was more than happy to make it sound as big as we could, because we were in a facility or a space where that was okay to do that, or even possible to do that.

Jordan: And as you said, your first EP you recorded in one day with all your own gear. That's a huge, I mean, huge congratulations. It's so deserving.

Let's talk about the title for a second, because I think that it's a strong metaphor of this idea of an outer shell projecting maybe an inner, more vulnerable core. And I was wondering if you could talk me through that name and if maybe you had the idea when you began writing, or if it more emerged naturally during the process.

Jim: Yeah, it's one of those things where, I don't know, for me as a writer, any kind of writing I do, whether it's poetry or stories or lyrics or whatever it is, I've always been open to this idea of not always having, like, you have a launching spot where you jump off from and you kind of let it go. And sometimes you have to just let your subconscious come through and then later you might find it.

Whereas, with Chrome Dipped, I kind of had some loose ideas for the song, what it was going to be about. It was kind of talking about a character from my childhood and using that as a launching point just to set up the kind of imagery and a scene for the listener to wrap their head around. But then later I was like, okay, what is actually going on here? And I sat with it for ages and Kirin and I talked about it and he was just like, I think that's what you should call the album.
And I was like, it's such a strange thing. I was like, I don't know, it might throw a few people off. And he's like, yeah, but... and then we talked about this kind of idea, and this ended up happening throughout the whole record. I like this idea that words can bring up almost senses. The word Chrome Dipped, for me, you can feel it. It's almost this tangible thing and you can smell it and all this kind of stuff.

And then that's in one aspect of it. I feel like Kirin made this really good point, which I'm not going to claim because he said it and I thought it was really beautiful. He said it's like steel wool. It's the hardest and softest thing together. You know, and it's like chrome dipped. It's like liquid chrome. Chrome's the hardest thing, liquid is soft, you know.

And then we had this conversation, we were talking about juxtaposition and pushing and pulling. Then we talked about songs like The Hog, and it's got this really strong riff and this kind of crunchiness to it, but then I felt the need to write these kind of poetic lyrics.

And I think throughout the whole record this idea of Chrome Dipped is that. It's something being hard and soft at the same time and this pull and push between that. And I think there's this beauty in that.

Jordan: I’m someone as well who really likes that sort of textural connection with sound and how sound connects with that. As you said, steel wool, that evoked so much imagery in my mind and I love that title. That's an amazing title.
It actually really goes on to my next question, which is that there's a lot of contrast in this record between some songs that are more mechanical and industrial sounding compared to really deep, vulnerable emotions. How was exploring that push and pull through the record and through the writing?

Jim: I think it's one of those things where you've got to just let go of the wheel for a second. Sometimes you've just got to go, all right, let's let go and see what happens here. And you've got to just trust in the process. I know that sounds a little bit cliche, but you kind of do with this stuff, especially when it's uncharted territory. You've got to just see what sticks. Especially when it's like, okay, this is red as a colour and I'm going to mush yellow into it. And you've got to trust that something's going to happen. You don't know what it is, but because it feels wrong you want to see if you can make something right out of it. And that in itself was the exciting part of it. Then you abandon this idea of a time frame. It's like, who cares how long it takes to get to that point, let's just give it a crack and see what happens. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And then you're forced to be pushed into different directions or take something away. Yeah, does that make sense?

Jordan: Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like that playful element of having the freedom to add different things and take different things away and see how things morph and change would be really freeing. It would be really interesting seeing how things morph through that process.

Jim: Which is exactly what we have. Stagnant creative process, whether it's painting, drawing, music, whatever. It's exactly right. You want to go back to that kind of naivety where you're just figuring out where you're playing. You know what you're doing, but you're happy to just play around in the mud a bit and see what comes up.

Jordan: Yeah, see what sticks. That's great. I want to talk about the emotional depth a little bit. You guys touch on some themes like loss and fear and addiction. But I think when you delve into that, it can be quite rewarding seeing the product of what you guys have made from it.
Is there a particular song that now that it's finished and you've seen the final product, you feel has particular significance or emotional connection for you?

Jim: For me, I mean, Gull's Way. I wrote that song with my mother in mind. Just before or during the writing process of this album, I lost my mother tragically to cancer, which was a horrible experience. And I was pretty conscious of how I was going to write about it. I was writing every single day about it while it was happening and after and during. And I think throughout the album, yes, that does come into it. I couldn't not let that come into it. But Gull's Way was probably the most conscious effort of me trying to talk about it in a way that I was going to be able to get up and sing it every night, if that makes sense. I didn’t want it to be... it's more of a homage to her or something. Gull's Way was a favourite place that she used to go and walk with my dad. And I wanted to make this kind of song that made me feel good about the memories of her. Does that make sense? Rather than it being this tragedy, I wanted it to be more of a beautiful story or something.

Jordan: No, that absolutely makes sense. And I think that song is so beautiful. And I think obviously when things like that, and thank you for sharing that by the way, but when things like that happen in your life, they're going to come through in your creativity and your music.
And I love that aspect of celebration of memory and just a homage to her as well. That's such a beautiful answer. Thank you so much for sharing that as well.

My last question that I have for you before I let you go is that you said that you wanted people to feel confused and then angry and then good when they hear the album. And I was wondering why that connection is important to you and why you hope that listeners take that away. I know that I sort of went through that process as well. I had to listen to it a couple of times. I love it, I love it. But why is that?

Jim: I mean, look, the most obvious reason is that we're living in a pretty... a lot of music now is quite hand-fed to you. It's pretty digestible straight off the bat, and that's fine.
But I think there's also, I think it's a bit more, I'll use the word fun. It's a bit more fun to put something out there that’s not as easy to just accept. I don't know, there's some beauty in that. And some people will come back from it and some people won't. And that's also important as well. And I think it's kind of just a fun way to shake it up for us and also for our listeners, or even new listeners.

Jordan: I love that answer. I do agree. I think some music now is made to be easily consumed compared to even if you look back to how we would consume albums and records in the past. It wasn't made to be easy to listen to. And I think, as you said, there's a real beauty in that. So thank you so much for hopping on the call and having a chat. It was amazing to be able to chat with you about it. I'm really excited for it to come out.

Jim: Thank you so much for chatting with me. That was really good. Thank you.

Listen to ‘Chrome Dipped’ below.

Jim McCullough of CIVIC on recording at MONA and the emotional core of ‘Chrome Dipped’

Julie Dawson of NewDad on writing again with the band after her solo debut album and the release of ‘Safe’

Sweet Boy on ‘Lucky’, dream collaborators and what’s next